Not Edwards finest moment

I want to admit upfront, that I support John Edwards for president.

Still, I have to admit: This was not his best debate performance. By far.

It has become so commonplace on this site, to just cheerlead for your candidate, whatever the facts, whatever the truth, whatever was really going on, that I just decided to write a diary, critical of my first choice in this primary.

While others are spinning to death, I am more inclined to believe, that serious analysis is much more helpful to my candidate.

That said...Edwards didnt shine yesterday in Las Vegas.

Why?

Read on....

1. The order of questions gave Hillary momentum. She was able to deflect most of the criticism in her first answer and made follow up critiques by Obama and Edwards look unfair.

2. The audience was clearly made up of more Hillary supporters, than Edwards or Obama supporters. At least they were the most vocal, when they booed Edwards and to some extent also Obama. No other candidates supporters booed anybody on stage. The booing gave the impression that Edwards was unpopular with democrats and was forced to stop his pointed attacks.

3. His voting record came back to haunt him. On trade (China), Iraq (authorization vote), energy (Yucca Mountain) he had to defend his past voting record and was only partially successful, portraing himself as an enlightened human being, open to new facts and changing his mind accordingly. It was basically a u-turn: Instead of painting Hillary as a flipflopper on drivers licenses for illegal immigrants (which IMO would have been a valid point), he was painted a flip flopper himself. It clearly undercut a lot of the valid points he made. Obama with Edwards' messaging skills, or Edwards with Obamas voting record would leave Hillary in the dust. But neither are perfect and it showed.

4. He got cut off by Blitzer much soooner than Clinton, Richardson and especially Obama who seems to ooze sio much authority, that Blitzer seldomly dared to cut him off. The result: Obama got 80% more talk time, Hillary 50% more talk time and Richardson 40% more talk time than Edwards. If you are not allowed to talk, you cant make your points. Rather simple math. Kucinich by the way elbowed his way to get his points across and got the most applause of all candidates for his tough on republicans talk including impeachment. If he werent seeing UFOs, didint look like a dwarf, wasnt so esoteric, had some fundraising capability he might actually be a good messenger for our party and even a good candidate for something.

5. Even to my ears, his repeating rhetoric against the corrupt system started to sound too much like Kucinich. The repetiviveness was also not cool. He needs new lines. He needs new slogans. He needs some refreshing of his campaign.

6. He was rambling and evasive on the question of whether it was a mistake to give China favorite trading status, souneded very much like Clinton in the last debate. He was also evasive on drivers licenses, but just because he didint want to accapt the right wing frame of Blitzers question. On Pakistan he seemed to try too hard to sound and look presidential and then gave a typical policy wonkish senates answer one might have rather expected from Dodd, Biden or Hillary.

NOW, NOT EVERYTHING WAS BAD FOR HIM!

1. He really shone when the mother came up with her son, who emphatically asked the people on stage to get us out of Iraq now and prevent another desaster in Iran. He was clear, articulate and showed passion here.

2. His initial lines of critique against Clinton regarding Peru free trade deal, Iran vote and sucking up to big corporations and lobbyists may not have scored too well in this audience. It is my beleief that he did score in Iowa with it.

3. His clear "No" on drivers licenses would have been a big winner for him tonight, if Spitzer hadnt withdrawn his plan and Team Hillary would not have retracted her third, fourth or was it the 5th position on drivers licenses, which was that she supported Spitzer. This may not go down well with people on this site. But its the best position politically, if you want to win in a state like Iowa, where 95% are white people and 75% are opposed to drivers licenses for illegal immigrants. While I thought Richardsons answer to be best, most concise and progressive, I dont believe it will get him votes in Iowa or NH. Neither was Obamas rambling answer a vote getter.

My grades for debate performance yesterday:

Joe Biden A-
Hillary Clinton B+
Dennis Kucinich B
Bill Richardson B
Barack Obama B-
Chris Dodd c+
John Edwards C

Yes, i rate my candidate last for last nights debate. But he was treated unfairly by CNN and Hillarys mudslinging comment was totally uncalled for IMO. She is playing the vicim card. Not good for a front runner. Whining and complaining about getting attacked wont get you anywhere in a general election.


Poll
Which of my grades is off the most in your opinion?
Dennis Kucinichs
Chris Dodds
Joe Bidens
Bill Richardsons
John Edwards
Barack Obamas
Hillary Clintons

Votes: 7
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Re: Not Edwards finest moment (none / 0)

I'll agree with those grades.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Nov 16, 2007 at 01:54:06 PM EST

Re: Not Edwards finest moment (none / 0)

I actually think Edwards wasn't as bad as you are making him out to be.

I think Obama didn't do himself any favors alst night.

He just took his one line of attack about Clinton that seemed to be working off the table with his driver's license answer.

He had 2 weeks to know that the question was coming up and he still blew it , after 2 weeks.

I think it took all of them off their game when Hillary Rodham Clinton jumped right of the box and immediately took them head on , both of them . I think they thought she would stay above the fray.

She showed the inconsistencies in their own records and punched back , i have said it all along that this guys can easily be cut into size , just because Clinton wasn't attacking them back didn't mean their records couldn't easily be picked apart.

Imagine on the iran thing yesterday , if Clinton had said that Obama actually co - sponsored a similar legislation calling on IRG to be named a terrorist organizations and talk about statements he had made earlier that we should stop syria and iran's influence in iraq , she would have just further undermined his credibility , however she just let that slide.

I think Edwards was better than Obama , obama didn't help himself with the license thing at all.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Fri Nov 16, 2007 at 02:08:10 PM EST

I was surprised by that (none / 0)

Everyone had to know that question was coming.

I have concluded that Obama just isn't comfortable with the debate format. He gets the most time to speak in every single debate, but he never seems to land the most punches. Biden and Edwards and Clinton are better at fitting their answers into 60 seconds, 90 seconds or 120 seconds.

When is the next debate? Is it the Black and Brown forum in Waterloo? Edwards did very well at that debate four years ago.


See if Saxby Chambliss is helping you.
by desmoinesdem on Fri Nov 16, 2007 at 02:35:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was surprised by that (none / 0)

Is it the Black and Brown forum in Waterloo?

Yes thats the next debate.

I don't know why people seems quick to right off Edwards , the debate spin should not be Edwards , it should be Obama's driver's license thing.

He did exactly what Clinton did 2 weeks ago and she was criticized and barraged by the press for 2 weeks. Even after Obama had 2 weeks notice , he still shot himself in the foot.

I don't know who would be comfortable watching him debate say a Guiliani in a general election debate , I think he will be slaughtered , although he is my second choice , I just don't simply get the feeling he is a good debater.

But I know Edwards is a solid debater , he is about my 5th choice , but I know he can handle himself in a general election debate .

I watched msnbc earlier on and they seem to want to sweep everything on Edwards feet and ignore Obama's horrible performance on that answer.

Edwards was better than Obama , it is just that he isn't terribly liked in the press.

I want to see what Chris Matthews will say about Obama's performance , I bet he shifts his focus on Edwards.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Fri Nov 16, 2007 at 02:59:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the booing threw him off (none / 0)

And you can be sure that if Edwards or Obama supporters had booed Hillary, her pundits would have been all over the place complaining about the "politics of piling on."

I think the most important factor was the unequal allocation of time that you mention. In every debate except for the AARP forum that he skipped, Obama has gotten more time than anyone else, followed by Clinton. It makes it hard for others to make a strong impression and puts pressure on them to hit all their talking points in the little time they do have.


See if Saxby Chambliss is helping you.
by desmoinesdem on Fri Nov 16, 2007 at 02:10:32 PM EST

Re: the booing threw him off (none / 0)

On the time issue, I agree 100%.  It does not serve our democracy well when the media gets to decide who the American people should hear from the most.

It is also fundamentally disrespectful to the other candidates and their supporters.


by FilbertSF on Fri Nov 16, 2007 at 02:36:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Edwards finest moment (none / 0)

It wasn't, but I think Hillary needs him to be competitive in Iowa, otherwise Obama wins Iowa and gets some momemtum for New Hampshire.


by mikelow1885 on Fri Nov 16, 2007 at 02:13:08 PM EST

Re: Not Edwards finest moment (none / 0)

I am not an Edwards fan. He didn't change my mind last night either. I felt he was nasty and petty. I have never felt comfortable with his statements because I constantly feel I am being pandered to.

Mark last night's debate as the end of the Edwards for President campaign. Too bad.

For the record I supported Howard Dean last election and hoped for Al Gore this year.

I am supporting Hilary Clinton because she is the most prepared and strongest candidate. She will be ready to govern on day one. Do I think that she will shake up the system and change the world? No. Do I feel she will return the world to sanity and give us an opportunity to start making progress instead of the constant slide backward? The answer is a strong yes.

We need to elect a Democrat. This is not a year to nominate another non-person disaster like 2004. John Edwards is no Howard Dean. Hillary is the only one ready to win.

PS -  When did this site become all about the face of campaigns and move away from a place that activists can discuss the mechanics of politics and campaigns?  All of this should be on Daily Kos not MYDD.


If all politics is local- then it's time to support your local Democratic Town Committee.
by JJonMyDD on Fri Nov 16, 2007 at 02:29:08 PM EST

last night wasn't the end of anything (none / 0)

The large majority of undecideds in Iowa will start moving in December and not before.


See if Saxby Chambliss is helping you.
by desmoinesdem on Fri Nov 16, 2007 at 02:36:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Edwards finest moment (none / 0)

Hillary is the complete antithesis of Howard Dean. It always astonishes me, that Deaniacs would support her in a field where at least three other candidates are more progressive and more anti-iraq-war than her.

Wanna give more reasons than the scripted "govern on day one"-Carville-phrase? I mean, thats much more true for Bill Richardson, if thats really your porimary concern. He has much more experience and actually he is the only candidate to have real executive experience.

Also a case could be made, that Biden and Dodd are also more experienced and ready for the White House. And Obama has more than a decade as a legislator behin him, more than Clinton.

It puzzles me, that having been First Lady is considered enough experience to lead the only remaining super power.

Well, it worked in Argentina, it may work in the Dynastic State of America...


by MarcTGFG on Fri Nov 16, 2007 at 02:40:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Edwards finest moment (none / 0)

You are wrong with the comment that there are other candidates more progressive than Hillary Clinton (aside from perhaps Kucinich.)  

And, what is the "case" you are making here?  So, Richardson has more experience running a government than others.  So Dodd and Biden have more experience.  They are not even in the top-tier, and they are not even ONE PERSON.  You are essentially arguing that if you could put Edwards, Obama, Richardson, Biden and Dodd into one person, you would have a candidate who could beat Clinton on most desireable attributes in a presidential nominee.  It actually shows Clinton's strength as a candidate, since she combines the strong points of all candidates into one person, whereas the other candidates individually are seen as having only partial bonafides in their own rights.  


by georgep on Fri Nov 16, 2007 at 03:13:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Edwards finest moment (none / 0)

I support Ms. Clinton because I am making a very practical choice.

It's because of Howard Dean that I joined my Democratic Town Committee and stopped just volunteering for campaigns and actually started running them.

We need a candidate who can lead and run a government. Change is not easy and takes small incremental steps to get there. In my estimation Ms. Clinton has the savvy, intellect and connections to be effective. Mr. Edwards does not. I wish Mr. Obama well and I know we have not seen the last of him.

It's not a tag line when people say they think the Clintons know what they are doing. It may not be as far and as fast as I want it but at least we are on the road to getting there again. If Mr. Gore were to jump in I would switch horses and support him because I feel he also has the qualifications and the connections to do the job. But he would be much more Progressive. But this is not an option this year.

In my opinion we have no better choice than Ms. Clinton. Voting your heart without your head will not bring us back to the White House. I measure my choice with both.


If all politics is local- then it's time to support your local Democratic Town Committee.
by JJonMyDD on Fri Nov 16, 2007 at 03:40:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Edwards finest moment (none / 0)

Your in Dreamland


by marketingman on Fri Nov 16, 2007 at 05:34:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm cool to Obama, that is clear (none / 0)

Everyone here knows that.  I used to have a lot of respect for Edwards, now I have zero.

But I think the media is ditching Edwards here in the interested of salvaging a two person race.

I think Edwards didn't do great.  Having his voting record thrown in his face wasn't a great moment for him but all in all I think Obama had a worse night.

Obama exposed himself last night to the people watching.  He showed off what I don't like about him.

He flubbed, floundered and was evasive through 3 questions.

On drivers lic, human rights vs. national sec., and one other one that escapes at this very moment ... I am trying to do two things at once ... he really looked like a safe, calculated, fake.  

I didn't think Obama had a great debate last time out either, when Edwards was deemed the winner by most.


by dpANDREWS on Fri Nov 16, 2007 at 03:12:05 PM EST

Re: Not Edwards finest moment (none / 0)

Thanks for trying to be fair.  And I'll admit Hillary's performance in the last debate bwas pretty bad.  But I will say both Obama and Richardson talk very slow and that is the probably the reason for their extra time.  Hillary does not talk slow but she gets a lot leveled at her so it's only proper she gets to respond.  While it doesn't bother me that Obama talks rather slow, sometimes Richardson is agonizing to listen to because he goes into a mode where it seems like he is talking to young children- you know the Brady Bunch movie where Mike Brady stands in front of the kids and lectures them- that's what Richardson reminds me of at times.


by reasonwarrior on Fri Nov 16, 2007 at 05:09:42 PM EST


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