The day after: How the debate REALLY went...

Crossposted at www.dailykos.com, hope this doesnt violate any diary rule...

First of all: I don't think there was a clear cut winner in this debate.

Some candidates did well, some very well, some not so well.

Now some observations:

Talk time was distributed very unevenly (source)

While Obama was always able to finish his statements he ended up with 16 minutes of talk time, Edwards wasnt so lucky, he only got 11:42 minutes (Obama had 36% mor time to get his message out). Hillary got 14:26 minutes, Richardson who was - like Edwards - often interrupted by moderator Wolf Blitzer only got 10:48 minutes. Joe Biden was surprisingly able to get several memorable moments and soundbites in a meager 7:58 minutes.

And this Wolf Blitzer guy actually got more than 13 minutes to talk. Who is he anyway? I didnt see him registering even 1% in any democratic primary poll ;-)

Bill Richardson:

He is a governor. Ok, we got that now ;-)

He was obviously overbriefed, had memorized answers ready for questions that didnt quite fit them. He isnt a good debater by the look of it. He looked grim at times and was visibly angry at Blitzer for not giving him any question before even longshots Gravel and Kucinich had their turn. Later Blitzer cut him off many times before he could gracefully finish his answers, which was kind of rude. Still, he should not make the impression that he feels put back.

In an live interview with Anderson Cooper shortly after the debate he was sooooo much better. He gor across what he wanted to say and looked less scripted. He seems to excel when he is really in touch and up close with a person/an interviewer. I guess he will excel in a real town hall format event where there can be true interaction with voters.

He made news (although the MSM decided otherwise) by saying he would use the US participation in the 2008 Bejing Olympics as leverage to get the Chinese to help end the genocide in Darfur. I think Dodd looked petty for saying that would be a disproportionate measure. Disproportionate to end a genocide? Really?

Richardson had a good answer on immigration reform, again hampered by a moderator trying to put the label "amnesty proponent" on a democrat.

Joe Biden:

He was witty, he was surprisingly brief and on topic with his answers, he showed passion, he looked likable and presidential and he threw Democrats lots of red meat (public financing of elections, "this is Bushs war", "while you keep talking, 50.000 more people will be dead in Darfur"). He got across, that he has lots of foreign policy experience and he did it well.

He was the one who probably most exceeded expectations. A real time survey of debate watchers by WMUR saw him actually rising to first place!

Mike Gravel:

Attacked the other democrats on stage relentlessly. Said, that democrats now own the war too. Made Barack Obama look pretty bad by asking him why he didnt know about the desastrous conditions at Walter Reed, although the senator is on the senate VA subcommittee. Obamas wonky policy answer didnt really explain it. Enough said.

Dennis Kucinich:

Had his new agey leanings under control this night. No talk of a department of peace or any such thing. He gave Obama the perfect opening when he declined to bomb Osama bin Laden if any civilian casualties would be necessary. Said he doesnt believe in assassination policy, which would come back and haunt America and might open up our leaders for similar things. Good answer, but makes him totally unelectable in this time and universe. Maybe in another one, where the Vulcans were enslaved by mankind...

Barack Obama:

This is the third live event where I saw him talk and the second debate. I simply cant see what others see in that guy. He looks very young, he gives very wonky and longwinded policy answers. And sometimes he even stuttered when answering questions. He looks very serious and scored some points when he said that it wouldnt be an assassination to kill Osama bin Laden, since he - under international law - is a military combatant. In his back and forth with Edwards he conceded that his Universal healthcare plan isnt really universal and replied that Edwards plan isnt truly universal either. As if that makes his plan any better.

He pointed out that he was against the Iraq war from the beginning and in his best oneliner of the evening he accused Edwards of being "4 and a half years late" on leadership on this issue.

Hillary Clinton:

Did well, very well. Didnt really stumble, even looked likable. She had big applause lines when she announced that she would "use" ex-president Clinton (who is by coincidence her husband) as a roving ambassador and send him all around the world. She had the best oneliner of the evening when she quoted Barry Goldwater in response to a "Don't ask, don't tell"-question: "You dont have to be straight, to shoot straight".

Now the bad: She is clearly running as a hawk, repudiating John Edwards, who said that the GWOT is just a political bumper sticker used by the Bush administartion to justify Iraq, Guantanamo, retraction of Habes corpus and domestic spying. She actually said, that Bush made us safer (just not safe enough), thus reinforcing several republican stereotypes.

She also used the memory of 9/11 to justify her hawkish position.

Most worrisome for me was that she still cant bring herself to admit, that her Iraq vore was a mistake. She also couldnt admit, that her husbands "Don't ask, don't tell"-policy was a mistake. She seems to be genuinely unable to admit mistakes. This is a dealbreaker for me, after 6 years of a president who is too stubborn to admit mistakes and correct them.

John Edwards:

He went on the attack, in his trademark way of attacking without looking mean. He scored points on honesty in politics (admitting his bad judgement on Iraq, saying upfront that democrats will need to raise taxes for universal healthcare, although the latter position migh actually harm him in NH!). He portrayed himself as a leader while depicting Hillary and Obama as opportunists who only decided how to vote on the Iraq supplemental at the last minute.

He had a very good, very detailed, diplomacy centric answer on how he will deal with Iran, surprisingly the best and least hawkish answer this night. He effectivly countered the impression that he is a light-weight on foreign policy.

He didnt connect to voters in the audience as well as I expected. Neither he, nor any other candidate, adressed one of the questioning voters directly by name, which I found VERY surprising, since it would be the obvious choice, to really connect. Especially the first women who was almost in tears cause her husbands unit in Iraq had just lost two comrades would have been perfect to show empathy. But neither Edwards nor any other candidate got out much more than platitudes about being "thankful that you serve". Bill Clinton would have won the debate on this question alone. But there was no BILL Clinton on stage.

Edwards looked a little bit tired to me. And he couldnt replicate his first rate speech at the DNC winter meeting where he got the crowd on its feet repeatedly. Edwards therefore probably didnt meet expectations which was also measured by WMUR.

Although he won the first half of the debate, he kind of dissipated in the second half, professionally ignored by the moderator and havinf to beg for 15 more seconds.

Christopher Dodd:

A solid debate appearance. He looked presidential, he was knowledgable, but he also gave typical Washington DC insider senatorialesque answers (not as bad as Obama, but bad nonetheless). He might be the John Kerry of this election cycle if Joe Biden doesnt take this role. He animated the audience to give our servicemen in Iraq a hearty round of applause. Whether he could score a point by this, I simply dont know. He made a reference to John F. Kennedy, which cant be a bad thing in a democratic primary debate, by speaking about his participation in the Peace corps. He also scored some point by admitting his mistake in initially voting for the war but showing leadership now to end it ASAP.


Poll
Wo was the candidate in last nights debate, who best represented your positions on the issues? (Not who "won" the debate!)
Hillary Clinton
Barack Obama
John Edwards
Bill Richardson
Joe Biden
Chris Dodd
Dennis Kucinich
Mike Gravel
None
Don't know

Votes: 30
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


And if someone can enlighten me... (none / 0)

cause I am really curious: What is it that you find so charismatic and wonderful about Obama? I simply dont see it. To me, he is just a young, fairly eloquent (but by far not the most eleoquent), knowledgable, serious looking, solutions oriented candidate. Which isnt bad, but doesnt generate any enthusiasm about him. Is it his skin color?

People here are saying he is a once in a lifetime candidate but why do you feel that way? Tell me...


by MarcTGFG on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 10:27:26 AM EST

Re: And if someone can enlighten me... (2.00 / 1)

What do you find so engaging a guy like Edwards who has changed many of his positions when he makes a public office run instead of just sticking to his belief.  We know John Edwards, the show and many people like him, but no one seems to actually know John Edwards the man (except for his strong union support and oor advocacy), because JE the show keeps changing.

BTW, If you are going to do a poll on a diary, DON'T give people the ability to choose multiple candidates, like they can in this one.  


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 11:10:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And if someone can enlighten me... (none / 0)

Instead of saying what you find aspiring about Obama you answer by bashing Edwards. Sadly thats a tendency I have seen too often.

Why dont you simply answer my question?


by MarcTGFG on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 11:12:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

20 000 people in a small city (2.00 / 1)

showing up in the rain can't be wrong.

How do you explain why you find someone charismatic, likeable or attractive? You can't. No offense but it's a stupid question that you are asking. Watch the energy around him, listen to his supporters. The proof is in the pudding.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 11:22:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 20 000 people in a small city (3.00 / 1)

"You can't."

That's ridiculous. This is what's frustrating. This isn't American Idol and it does matter what presidents actually stand for and what they'll fight for.

You're reasoning is the same as why people voted for Bush over Gore. They "liked him" better. Does that mean he should be president?


by adamterando on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 11:27:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 20 000 people in a small city (none / 0)

Its a VERY bad habit to answer a question by asking a question in response, my mother raised me in a way that this is absolutely unpolite.

You are evasive. I asked a question, you are unable or unwilling to answer it and try to make it about a debate on John Edwards.


by MarcTGFG on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 12:08:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 20 000 people in a small city (none / 0)

And: There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers!


by MarcTGFG on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 12:08:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And if someone can enlighten me... (none / 0)

BTW, If you are going to do a poll on a diary, DON'T give people the ability to choose multiple candidates, like they can in this one.  

As an authority on other people's diaries, could you explain what is so wrong with a multiple choice poll?


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 12:23:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

His charisma comes across (none / 0)

in TV interviews where he is alone with a reporter, and in front of big crowds (when he is fully into it). This kind of debate show is clearly not his format.

When I see him on TV being interviewed I am amazed at his presence. He just oozes confidence and is often funny.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 11:19:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: His charisma comes across (none / 0)

So you have a crush on him. Great. But does what he will do for the country mean anything to you? Or is it all personal affinity that matters?


by adamterando on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 11:28:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The day after: How the debate REALLY went... (none / 0)

To be fair, debates are NOT good for Obama.  He becomes one of all the others, and, given his "greenness" when it comes to high-profile debates is probably even at a disadvantage.  

I don't see him getting ahead because upcoming debates pose the same problems for him over and over, they don't help him at all.

I disagree that Clinton is a "hawk."    There ARE those who want to do harm to us.  They will be with us.  So, we DO have to be aware of their presence and we will have to deal with the individuals as they try to make their political points or simply want to "blow stuff up" against us evil non-believers.  That is separate from the Iraq war and the dicy situation in the Middle East the Bush-war created, which needs to be  addressed via diplomacy.  


by georgep on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 10:57:26 AM EST

Re: The day after: How the debate REALLY went... (none / 0)

I agree that it is not his format, not because of any greenness but because of his (intellectual) style.  Anyway the real time polls among uncommited voters show that he was one of the winners in the debate so I guess that you are quite alone in your perception.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 11:25:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The day after: How the debate REALLY went... (none / 0)

I thought Obama was much better in this debate than the last one.

In 2004, Edward's first debates were not very good, but he got much better as the season went on and was very good just before the Caucuses started.


by BDM on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 12:38:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Debates will not be an issue for Obama (none / 0)

There is agreement -- even among Obama's supporters, I think -- that debates
do not play to Obama's natural strengths.

But, as The New York Times noted this morning, Obama "appeared more forceful
and poised than he did during the first debate." Which stands to reason, since doing
well in these spectacles is a learned performance skill. Indeed, it is more reasonable
to believe that Obama will continue to get better with each outing; that debates will
become less and less of an issue for him; and that each new debate will create fewer
opportunities for the Clinton campaign in particular to draw "strong leader" distinctions
with Obama on that basis.

That said, if the last two elections are any index, the American people don't put
much stock in being a snappy debater in a high-tech cattle call.


by horizonr on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 11:41:14 AM EST

I think you're wrong (none / 0)

Dodd was the only one who did not want to boycott olympics


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 12:04:50 PM EST

Re: I think you're wrong (none / 0)

This is wrong too, Blitzer asked the candidates to raise their hands in support of such a measure and only Richardson and Edwards raised their hands as far as I remember. Obama and Clinton did not raise their hands.


by MarcTGFG on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 12:06:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Absolutely wrong (none / 0)

watch the debate.

Boycotting the Olympics was Richardsons idea. Dodd OBJECTED! And only Edwards concurred!


by MarcTGFG on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 12:05:46 PM EST

The Olympics Question (none / 0)

No reason to be surprised at Obama being against it.  Most sports fans are against using the Olympics for political clout no matter how naive non-Sports fans my think that to be.  Carter's ridiculous boycott of the Moscow Olympics ended up hurting him - I say ridiculous because I'm a sports fan.  Of all the folks on stage, Obama clearly has the edge on being able to connect with the ESPN crowd as he did with his great Bears-Rams opening segment.


by dougdilg on Mon Jun 04, 2007 at 02:58:47 PM EST


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